I agree the goal should be to dissolve the dialectic between left and right but to say the right is simply co-opting post liberalism for liberal ends I find unconvincing. Every “right wing” Catholic I know under 35 doesn’t care about following the Road to Serfdom and is negative on Reagan and is totally open to distributism or something like that. Meanwhile every leftist after the election is still doubling down on trans insanity and you won’t find any “leftcaths” fighting against it for fear of being labeled as a bigot. It’s simply just a fact the right is closer to post liberalism. I suspect that’s because to me the lefts mistakes are having disordered passions clouding them while the rights is more having a disordered intellect which is easier to fix
This may be true regarding North America but things are significantly different in Europe, including the U.K. Here there is a real postliberal unwoke left, including a Christian one. And the postliberal Right is often more removed from nationalism, being sonetimes pro EU, albeit critically. And I know of American Catholics in the same box. I take your points yet cannot see embracing nationalism or a totalitarian drift as postliberal (rather than populist) at all.
Appreciate the reply Mr. Milbank. That’s fair I don’t know European politics as well and I agree that nationalism and totalitarianism are modern ideas no better than neoliberalism. Personally in Europe I’ve never heard of anyone on the left really pushback on the excesses of the cultural left except JK Rowling and she’s still clearly a liberal so I’m just skeptical of the idea of a Postliberal left but I could be wrong. Perhaps we are just much further away from postliberalism than we will want to be and it will take another generation or two of collapsing birth rates, immigration, sexual madness, and perhaps most importantly strengthening of Christian communities outside the mainstream for there really to be an alternative
I might be sympathetic to what you’re saying but I’m more pessimistic on Christians who are culturally right wing—especially to the extent that they are excited about Trump. The decadent immorality of Trump and those in his cabinet is rarely criticized from those corners of the church. It also seems to me that this ironic marriage of religion and vice emerges from neoliberal culture and not despite it. The erosion of community and cultural practice caused by the destruction of local economies has, it seems to me, devastated the moral culture of conservative communities. All that’s left are weird simulacra of virtue for which Pete Hegseth’s drunky Christianity is a perfect example.
Yeah Trump worship is cringe but I don’t think most Christians worship him I think that’s more rural whites who are some of the least religious people based on statistics. I also agree that communities being hollowed out has made rural whites less moral. I don’t really blame them for that though I blame the decadent elite class who sold out their communities for GDP gain. They didn’t have noblesse oblige their status demands. As for Christians I’m more suspect if you aren’t right wing as the left has fully embraced the logical conclusions of the sexual revolution which involves mass murder, destruction of family formation, and the mutilation of children. And do they not hold Trump to the same standards as liberals, sure, but that’s because Trump has fought for their interests to push back on liberal social culture so it’s simply not prudent to attack someone who is helping you. Most Christians think Trump is far too liberal but at least he’s doing something
To complicate that a little bit—I don't think the Christian endorsement of Trump can be relegated to poor whites. His legislative support is coming from up and down the Senate roster and it has been since he announced his second run. It also wouldn't really scan with the Catholic side of the equation. The poor white Catholic is a vanishing reality. I think there are plenty of Catholic, right wing elites who are celebrating Trump, and worked hard to get him elected.
Yeah it’s a little more complex. It’s mostly poor whites and elite Catholics or other non-progressive elites who support him. I guess that’s more of a disagreement on prudential politics though. One might find Trumps lack of morality off putting and his demeanor destructive and not fitting of the office and so politically it’s not prudent to support him. One might also think that he’s really the only non-liberal option and the liberals throw pro lifers in jail and sue nuns so at least with Trump conservative Christians won’t get that treatment and get a seat at the table. I think the latter is why so many Catholic fought for him and personally why I voted for him and I think pretty much any reasonable Catholic should have voted for him and why he won the Catholic vote by more than any president in a long time
Good thoughts! I think many points you make about our crisis of confidence in our current political-economic situation can help build a constructive program of democratic renewal rather than the nihilistic (system-destruction) atavism that has sprung up around the world.
You can’t complain about the right ‘coopting’. The problem is that left communitarians and decentralists /subsidiarists have not shown up and don’t engage with conservatives.
Yes it is good to dump politics as religion. Down the road a primacy of religion can give us a saner politics. For we can’t avoid the political and the social. The great Orthodox thinkers in exile in the Soviet period realised that. There’s some danger of the Orthodox forgetting that today?
Thank you for publishing the interview. Milbank is one of the great minds of our time.
I agree the goal should be to dissolve the dialectic between left and right but to say the right is simply co-opting post liberalism for liberal ends I find unconvincing. Every “right wing” Catholic I know under 35 doesn’t care about following the Road to Serfdom and is negative on Reagan and is totally open to distributism or something like that. Meanwhile every leftist after the election is still doubling down on trans insanity and you won’t find any “leftcaths” fighting against it for fear of being labeled as a bigot. It’s simply just a fact the right is closer to post liberalism. I suspect that’s because to me the lefts mistakes are having disordered passions clouding them while the rights is more having a disordered intellect which is easier to fix
This may be true regarding North America but things are significantly different in Europe, including the U.K. Here there is a real postliberal unwoke left, including a Christian one. And the postliberal Right is often more removed from nationalism, being sonetimes pro EU, albeit critically. And I know of American Catholics in the same box. I take your points yet cannot see embracing nationalism or a totalitarian drift as postliberal (rather than populist) at all.
Appreciate the reply Mr. Milbank. That’s fair I don’t know European politics as well and I agree that nationalism and totalitarianism are modern ideas no better than neoliberalism. Personally in Europe I’ve never heard of anyone on the left really pushback on the excesses of the cultural left except JK Rowling and she’s still clearly a liberal so I’m just skeptical of the idea of a Postliberal left but I could be wrong. Perhaps we are just much further away from postliberalism than we will want to be and it will take another generation or two of collapsing birth rates, immigration, sexual madness, and perhaps most importantly strengthening of Christian communities outside the mainstream for there really to be an alternative
I might be sympathetic to what you’re saying but I’m more pessimistic on Christians who are culturally right wing—especially to the extent that they are excited about Trump. The decadent immorality of Trump and those in his cabinet is rarely criticized from those corners of the church. It also seems to me that this ironic marriage of religion and vice emerges from neoliberal culture and not despite it. The erosion of community and cultural practice caused by the destruction of local economies has, it seems to me, devastated the moral culture of conservative communities. All that’s left are weird simulacra of virtue for which Pete Hegseth’s drunky Christianity is a perfect example.
Yeah Trump worship is cringe but I don’t think most Christians worship him I think that’s more rural whites who are some of the least religious people based on statistics. I also agree that communities being hollowed out has made rural whites less moral. I don’t really blame them for that though I blame the decadent elite class who sold out their communities for GDP gain. They didn’t have noblesse oblige their status demands. As for Christians I’m more suspect if you aren’t right wing as the left has fully embraced the logical conclusions of the sexual revolution which involves mass murder, destruction of family formation, and the mutilation of children. And do they not hold Trump to the same standards as liberals, sure, but that’s because Trump has fought for their interests to push back on liberal social culture so it’s simply not prudent to attack someone who is helping you. Most Christians think Trump is far too liberal but at least he’s doing something
To complicate that a little bit—I don't think the Christian endorsement of Trump can be relegated to poor whites. His legislative support is coming from up and down the Senate roster and it has been since he announced his second run. It also wouldn't really scan with the Catholic side of the equation. The poor white Catholic is a vanishing reality. I think there are plenty of Catholic, right wing elites who are celebrating Trump, and worked hard to get him elected.
Yeah it’s a little more complex. It’s mostly poor whites and elite Catholics or other non-progressive elites who support him. I guess that’s more of a disagreement on prudential politics though. One might find Trumps lack of morality off putting and his demeanor destructive and not fitting of the office and so politically it’s not prudent to support him. One might also think that he’s really the only non-liberal option and the liberals throw pro lifers in jail and sue nuns so at least with Trump conservative Christians won’t get that treatment and get a seat at the table. I think the latter is why so many Catholic fought for him and personally why I voted for him and I think pretty much any reasonable Catholic should have voted for him and why he won the Catholic vote by more than any president in a long time
100%
Good thoughts! I think many points you make about our crisis of confidence in our current political-economic situation can help build a constructive program of democratic renewal rather than the nihilistic (system-destruction) atavism that has sprung up around the world.
You can’t complain about the right ‘coopting’. The problem is that left communitarians and decentralists /subsidiarists have not shown up and don’t engage with conservatives.
Yes it is good to dump politics as religion. Down the road a primacy of religion can give us a saner politics. For we can’t avoid the political and the social. The great Orthodox thinkers in exile in the Soviet period realised that. There’s some danger of the Orthodox forgetting that today?